Interviewer: How important was Klaus Fuchs?
Alexander Feklisov: Well when Klaus Fuchs was caught - he was betrayed by Harry Gold - it was written in the books.
Interviewer: How important was he as a spy?
Alexander Feklisov: I think this was the most important spy of the war for the SovietUnion for getting information about the atom bomb which was created in the United States. The atom bombwasn't even hydrogen bomb and of highest importance. He, facilitated it alone the Soviet Union toshorten the period of creating the atom bomb maybe by four or five years at least, and that was all overthe Soviet Union to economise about billions and billions of dollars.
Interviewer: I know he gave away a lot of secrets, but what were some of the mostimportant secrets he gave away?
Alexander Feklisov: Well, practically he gave all the information about the firsturaniumbomb and plutonium bomb. He gave the whole theoretical basis. All sizes, everything whatwas needed tocreate, but certainly the Soviet scientists, they couldn't take it for granted. Theyexperimented; theychecked it whether it was worked, you know, by stages: one element of atom bomb, theother element, thethird element. But still it helps a lot to create atom bomb in a very shorttime.
Interviewer: When the Kremlin, when Stalin heard about Fuchs' information, what did he say? And what decisionswere taken?
Alexander Feklisov: You know, when first information came about the possibility tocreatethe atom bomb, Beria was not certain. Shesaidmaybe it is misinformation and we've spent a lot of money, a lot of material, a lot of men allin vain.Then information was coming more and more exact, and the scientists, Soviet scientists Kurchatov and others said I guess it will work. It iscorrectinformation. So, he gave uranium, and he gave all the information felt to produce uraniumtwenty, twohundred thirty-five. Then he gave plutonium bomb, but he couldn't give the product, howplutonium wasproduced. It was produced at Columbia, he never was there. But when he arrived inLondon, the firstthing he gave me and the first meeting was how the method of production ofplutonium, and Britishstarted to build chemical plants at Windscale and Western Scotland, and he wasso wanted to help us alot. I remember what was missing in role of all Soviet scientists needed toproduce plutonium, how toproduce plutonium, he gave the information at the first meeting. There waspractically three meetings,important for the United States, meeting with Gold at Fuchs house nearBoston, then meeting at LosAlamos in June, and meeting at Los Alamos in September. Fuchs witnessedthe explosion, the firstexplosion in Alamogordo.
Interviewer: So, what happened when the Kremlin heard Fuchs information?
Alexander Feklisov: Yes, the most important information of nuclear weapons wasreceivedfrom Fuchs March 18th, 1948. I asked even Fuchs at the first meeting about thesuper bomb,and he gave me just very basic. He said that for me until there is working in theUnited States onsuper bomb, and that all scientists say that it is possible to create, to build thissuper bomb. OnMarch 18th, 1940, he gave me a written information about super bomb andalso informationabout improved atomic bomb, atom bombs. Scientists evaluated this information, Vannikov and Kurchatov. They translated it and theyreported to Stalinand his two others. Beria said that it, is a breakthrough in the science. Weshouldn't allow Americansto build it first and go with Alamos, and so there were orders, there weredecisions. You know, for thegovernment, for scientists to organise several groups. There was Khariton then Sakharov and many more. All the best scientist was gathered and alsowere given a lot of money, even whenKurchatov said that how shall I ask him a lot of money from you,when the country is in ruins. It ishunger, it is cold, and Stalin answered him in a Russianproverb, "When child doesn't cry, motherdoesn't understand what he, the child want." Andhe said "You cry, you ask for us, then wewill give you."
Interviewer: Why did Fuchs give away secrets? What was his motive?
Alexander Feklisov: Well, he was Communist, you see. Ideologically he consideredthatcommunism is the highest stage of human society, and he was against and considered that privatepropertyis the source of the exploitation. Like not only Fuchs, he reviled, Gold also wrote aboutit; even Thomas More, I mean his book Utopia, he, they all wrote about this. Should society be created without exploitation?
Interviewer: Was Fuchs concerned about nuclear parity?
Alexander Feklisov: Yes, he was against American monopoly. Not only he, but alsomanyscientists, were against monopoly, and, you see, when Fuchs was arrested and spent a term of tenyearsin British prison. When he was old, first they said that Fuchs was just a traitor, a spy, butnow, manyscientists say that Fuchs played very important part. Maybe, because of Fuchs and creationof the atomicweapons in the Soviet Union, there was no atomic conflict. There was no Americans whowanted to throwthe atom bomb on Chinese troops in North Korea, then maybe in Caribbean crisis andmany other things,because they were afraid of retaliation.
Interviewer: What did Fuchs say about why it was important for Russia to have a bombtoo?
Alexander Feklisov: Well, in order to deprive United States of monopoly on atomicweapons, this is the in short. If they would have monopoly, then they will to intimidate every countryto follow their way. Otherwise they will bomb several atomic weapons. You see now the United States,they don't throw atomic weapon, but atom bomb was just telling them, don't use it, otherwise you willgive in return atomic weapons on your country.
Interviewer: Did you like Fuchs?
Alexander Feklisov: I liked him very much. I say that he was ideal for the job. Itwasso inspirational to work with him.
Interviewer: How?
Alexander Feklisov: You see, I talk to him for instance, once in England, eh I said,Klaus, why don't you marry your Mary? It will be good for you, you will be invited to society, to mosthigher circles. You will be promoted to in your work and you will be more respected person. You knowrespect. He said "you see, I understand that what I am doing working with you. It's like I amtreading through the field of mines. One wrong step and my life is over. I am already for it", hesaid, "but I don't want that my wife, my children will suffer because of me." He was arevolutionary and I think he - he was. When I was at his grave in Berlin, I knelt and bowed threetimes, and the German's ask, "Why have you three times knelt?" I said, "Well just forme, because I was lucky to meet him. Then, as well thanks to him. The second kneel, how to say?
Interviewer: Bow, kneel?
Alexander Feklisov: It is from the Soviet people. He showed the world and otherpeople.I will give this symbol that all Soviet people is owed to him, and the certain generalprogressive manin the world. I told you when Soviet atom bomb on 29th August, 1949 wasexploded and thatbrought the reception and Stalin was present, and he was in good mood. What he saidthat Kurchatov andHarriton, you know, if we were late about year and half, about two years, we wouldfeel the Americanatom bomb on our shoulders.
Interviewer: How was Fuchs caught? What led to his arrest?
Alexander Feklisov: Well, he was caught very simply. Betrayed by Harry Gold hisnicknamewas Raymond. You know, when his room was searched, they found the map of Los Alamos, eventhere was aplace where they met in the Albuquerque. They met at the bridge that crossed. Theyknew the scheduleof bosses, everything. But before that, he said that I never was in the West.Well, one Americanwriter said he was a weak thing. He couldn't say no to any question what was duringinterrogation. Hegave the whole, and now, well, it is all written that reported to President Trumanthe power and thesource of leak, atomic leak, it is Fuchs, and they said this in the message to theBritish counterintelligence. Then they in March, 1950, they received the first information aboutthat Fuchs is theagent of the Soviet Union. For America they very quickly made some measures andarrested him. But Iwill tell you, Fuchs he confessed that he told everything. He told to HarryGold all the places wherehe didn't give my name, because he didn't know it. He knew me only asEugene. And that's all.
Interviewer: Why did he confess?
Alexander Feklisov: I think British thought that instead of me with Klaus was workinganillegal, so they didn't pay attention to the people who worked at the embassy and the other Sovietofficers. But there was the second secretary of the Soviet embassy. So when he was but caught, he wasjailed very quickly, one hour after. There was no jury, no, just the main squadron who interrogatedhim; he was the only witness. But, I will have to say those words to the British justice. They showedthat they were well independent from the government. They tried him according to the law, because heworks for the Soviet Union and Soviet Union was ally, not the enemy. If the Soviet Union was enemy thathe would of been killed, but that he got fourteen years. He behaved while in prison very exemplary,because all chiefs of the prison, they liked him, and he gave the lectures of mathematics, on English.All the prison guards were present, and they like you, and the chief of the prison said "oh, noproblems with prisoners became very, very good."
Interviewer: What work did you do with the Rosenbergs?
Alexander Feklisov: The Rosenbergs were, like me, in January, in electronics, so weareeach other freely. I would say that he gave us important information, but in the field ofelectronics,they provided us information with different kind of radars.
Interviewer: Radars?
Alexander Feklisov: Radars. They gave most information, this different kind ofsonars,or at the American name and the British name Aztec. It's underwater radar. They findsubmarines.
Interviewer: Underwater radars?
Alexander Feklisov: They gave information about the sight, you know, how to bumpexactlycertain targets, as they were. All this information was very important because electronics,and theyneeded them for atom bomb production.
Interviewer: But did they give away important atomic information?
Alexander Feklisov: No, not at all, only information about David Greenglass. It's brother of his wife. But, he was not an engineer, he wasjust high-school boy. He was about I think, nineteen or twenty. And he was just a volunteer, becausehe said while there in Los Alamos, there were two counter intelligence. One, and then military counterintelligence, and they were watching everybody, because many people asked why Soviet Union was not giveninformation about it. But in general during the War, the American didn't give the newest militarytechnology. For instance, they didn't give bombers to to bomb Berlin and the other cities, but theygive the bombers, front line bombers. They have their range of distance, maybe three hundredkilometres, just to bomb front line.
Interviewer: Were the Rosenbergs important atomic spies?
Alexander Feklisov: No, he was not important atomic spy. All information from JuliusRosenberg came to me, to my hands, and it was in my hand. Only information or from Greenglass was onepaper, and there the paper was given to Harry Gold, and one oral information during talk with Yatzkov.They talked in Russian, but I told you that after that conversation, Yatzkov gave judgement that he isnot useful as a source of atomic information. Practically, I didn't know anything about Lona Cohen, andonly they, Yatzkov showed me her picture in order, you see. Coffee shop was very small, maybethis room, there the was this place door, then counter was on this side. Lona was sitting in themiddle, and she was very nervous, and when I came I just studied all persons there. And I couldn't findthat anybody could be our agent.
Interviewer: She wasn't being followed?
Alexander Feklisov: Yes, I already was experienced then Lona went out, and I sawwhetheranybody will follow her. Nobody followed her. Then Yatzkov was on the other side ofthe street,and I gave him sign that everything was clear. I just took off my hat and went to thelift, and thenthey met and he received the material.
Interviewer: Now, did they say that this was an important meeting?
Alexander Feklisov: Yes. You see, I told you that Korostikov and alsoYatzkov,they, I didn't know that, about this problem of atom bomb. Well, I'll tell you frankly, Iliked so muchelectronics, I studied in the institute for five years, and I had very good talks withRosenberg, and wediscussed all. I already knew all of different kind of radar and size, and sonar.Everything, you see,and I was just in love with electronics. Korostikov didn't like when I askedsomething of the work withother agents. So I never asked what kind of agent has Yatzkov. So, withYatzkov we were very goodfriends. We would very often play chess. He was a chess player, and weknew each other from 1939 'tillhis death, 1992. It's practically fifty years.
Interviewer: You were saying to me that they told you about this meeting, that LonaCohenwas an important agent, and she was bringing material that was going to be handed over?
Alexander Feklisov: I knew that Lona, I didn't know her name, just photograph, shewillbring important material, but she was just connection man.
Interviewer: Courier?
Alexander Feklisov: Yeah, between some agent, I don't know who, and Yatzkov.
Interviewer: But they told you she was an important agent?
Alexander Feklisov: Yes, she was receiving material from an important agent. Whentheytried Rosenberg, they accused him of stealing atom bomb. But he never did it. He didn'tunderstandanything about it.
Interviewer: And his wife?
Alexander Feklisov: Even, Edgar Hoover wrote memorandum to the President that theyshouldn't put on electric chair Ethel Rosenberg. There was such a anti-Soviet atmosphere in the UnitedStates. Such terrible Cold War, they wanted to kill somebody for the fact that Soviet Union so quicklybuilt atom bomb. They asked the British to give them Fuchs to try. But British said he is a Britishcitizen, and we will try him by ourselves.
Interviewer: How did you feel when the Rosenbergs were executed?
Alexander Feklisov: You see, Fuchs was a much more important agent, and he had thehighest important information, too. But Rosenberg gave information less important, you see, and wethought maybe he will be sentenced to seven, ten years, you see? And we never thought that theRosenbergs would be killed.
Interviewer: How did you feel when they were killed?
Alexander Feklisov: I said that I already did work in the scientific intelligence,but inpolitical, still they met with Yatzkov very, practically everyday, and I'll tell you,they made alot of mistakes. For instance we should say that Rosenberg was our agent. And to tellwhat kind ofinformation we could make it easier for Rosenberg to confess. They would confess, too.That it wouldbe easier to find people who will testify for Rosenberg. There were many lawyers whotestified, I thinksix, but then we could nobody is ever association of lawyers anti-fascist. Theycould - the wholeassociation will stand by Rosenberg, will defend him. And there were millions whowere manifestingagainst killing Rosenberg. You know the ambassadors in France and in Italy, theywrote to StateDepartment that we are encircled by demonstrators. We are, you know, encircled. We areafraid to goout, but if Soviet Union was, they will speak for the friends of ours, not for thefriends and todecrease the sentence. Listen, then China - many there were anti-Fascist movement in Europe, very high.You know, even in 1948, there were meeting of foreign ministers in London. Molotov said 'let's conduct election of both Germans and let themelect a government with Americans and British now. It is that many people live very poorly in Germany.So anti-Fascist must know this very high. We will help them to organize good learning. You see theCold War was still terrible, terrible.
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